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Question about cannons...
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Erisian Paladin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:27 pm    Post subject: Question about cannons... Reply with quote

First of all... Excellent game!

It's very close to the feel of the original I played back in the 80's.

I noticed something, though... Is the assignment of cannon on ships automatic? When I started I had a sloop with 8 cannon, and though the manual says they can hold 12 cannon, no matter how many ships I captured it still had the same 8.

It looks like all the ships have a set number of cannon when you capture them, and I can't find a way to reassign them to other ships in the fleet... And you can't sell extra cannon either...

If I want maximum cannon on my ship am I doomed to have to keep capturing them until I find one that has the max, or am I missing something obvious?
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Wolfwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this should work the same as it does in the PC version:

Edit: In fact, it doesn't. See dshirk's message below

When you capture a ship in battle, you must move cargo from the captured ship to your fleet before you sink it or take it with you. If you don't move the cargo, it will be lost even if you take the ship with you.

Thus, when after a victory, you get to the looting screen, you _must_ move cargo from the right side ship to the left side ship. The cargo on the right side _will be sunk_ whatever you decide to do with the ship itself. The left side represents _your whole fleet_, not just your flag ship.

And, yes, once you have enough cannons, they will be automatically spread, so that your flag ship gets its cannons first and any extra cannons are spread equally between the other ships in the fleet.
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Last edited by Wolfwood on Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SlipperyJim
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worth noting that the other ships in your fleet don't actually do anything with those cannon. The only ship that every fights anyone is your flagship. Therefore, you only need to have enough cannon in your entire fleet to outfit your flagship. Carrying guns for your other ships is a waste of cargo space. You might carry a few extra guns, just in case you take a hit or two during a battle, but don't carry more than that.

In the old PC game, cannon all sold for 50 gold, and they were a valuable commodity. In the new game, they're almost worthless. I guess that makes some sense. Capturing a bunch of warships used to be a quick-and-dirty way of accumulating cash, by selling all of the surplus cannon.
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What? Oh, NOW I get it....
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Erisian Paladin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Xbox version is different...

If I keep the ship I don't get the looting screen at all. If I sink the ship the looting screen I get doesn't have an entry for cannon.

When I switch between my Sloop of War (14 of 16 max cannon) and my brig of War (26 of 32 max cannon) the number of cannon stays the same, even though I have a Merchantman along for the heavy lifting which has only fired once the 14 cannon she has for armament... Sad
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rupertlittlebear
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erisian Paladin wrote:
I think the Xbox version is different...

If I keep the ship I don't get the looting screen at all. If I sink the ship the looting screen I get doesn't have an entry for cannon.

When I switch between my Sloop of War (14 of 16 max cannon) and my brig of War (26 of 32 max cannon) the number of cannon stays the same, even though I have a Merchantman along for the heavy lifting which has only fired once the 14 cannon she has for armament... Sad
If the entry is there at all, it is in the same areas as Goods and Food.
The more you explain, the more it looks like you are simply not picking the cannons up.
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Erisian Paladin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that, good sir, is my point... I have yet to find an opportunity to take on more cannon.

On both the Looting Screen and the Main Status Screen which shows Fleet Stores, the entries are:

1) Gold
2) Food
3) Luxuries
4) Goods
5) Spice
6) Sugar

On the Fleet Status Screen the number of cannon on each ship are listed under the crew entry... and nowhere else I can find.

I truly hope I'm just missing the obvious...

If they have removed any way of upgunning a ship, then this problem will become VERY annoying...

For example, imagine finding, against all odds, the awesome Ship of the Line of your dreams. You capture it after an epic battle... only to find that, thanks to the damage it took in the fight, your mighty vessel is forever hobbled with 8 cannon... Mad

That's why I'm hoping I'm just missing the obvious... The alternative is just too cruel to think about... Sad
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rupertlittlebear
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either it is at the bottom of the list of the items you just listed or it is a "Game Killing Bug"
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dshirk
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what I got from Dan, the producer...

Ships always have however many cannons they have, and you can't add to their cannon number anymore. However, all ship classes don't necessarily spawn with the same number of cannons. So even though your beginner sloop is an 8 gun sloop, you may run into a 20 gun sloop on the high seas. And that's kind of a decision you need to make -- do I keep the 8 gun ship that has all the upgrades I've put into it, or capture this ship with more guns but without all my upgrades, and put the money into upgrading the new ship.

This added an extra dimension to the gameplay, and always leaves the option open to finding a better ship of the same class.
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rupertlittlebear
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dshirk wrote:
This is what I got from Dan, the producer...

Ships always have however many cannons they have, and you can't add to their cannon number anymore. However, all ship classes don't necessarily spawn with the same number of cannons. So even though your beginner sloop is an 8 gun sloop, you may run into a 20 gun sloop on the high seas. And that's kind of a decision you need to make -- do I keep the 8 gun ship that has all the upgrades I've put into it, or capture this ship with more guns but without all my upgrades, and put the money into upgrading the new ship.

This added an extra dimension to the gameplay, and always leaves the option open to finding a better ship of the same class.
Yepper, Game Killing Bug.
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Wolfwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa! That's an interesting decision.

I must admit that getting more cannons from whichever ship always was a bit illogical (since different ship types would carry vastly different cannons and thus small ships would not be able to carry a big cannon taken from a frigate). But making it completely impossible to gain more cannons, even from the shipwright, makes it seem that one extreme was replaced with another extreme...

I can see good arguments for both sides, of course... For one thing, it is nice to have sort of sub-classes of sloops, each with different number of cannons.

But what happens if one captures a frigate and in the process of capturing (battle) manages to destroy all its cannons (in effect, capturing a frigate with no cannons at all). Will this frigate be forever denied the pleasure of carrying cannons?

Are there other changes that are as extensive as this one? In treasure hunting, dancing etc.? If there are, we may have to make separate sub-pages for all of our strategy forums for the X-Box version...
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Wolfwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfwood wrote:
But what happens if one captures a frigate and in the process of capturing (battle) manages to destroy all its cannons (in effect, capturing a frigate with no cannons at all). Will this frigate be forever denied the pleasure of carrying cannons?


Thinking further on this, it seems to me that for the new system to work, you should be able to go to the shipwright and get the missing cannons back when you repair the ship. Otherwise, the change makes no sense at all.

@Erisian Paladin: Can you try this out? Shoot at a ship until most of its cannons are gone, then capture it and have if fixed to see if the cannons come back?
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It is much better to be armed with a sword that has two edges than with an estoc [...], which is nothing more than a stick with a point. (Rapier Master G. Morsicato Pallavicini, La Scherma Illustrata, p. 14.)
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Westley_Roberts
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I was going to post something about this a bit ago, but thought twice.

Now, I must..

WHAT ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Someone has taken a LARGE aspect of the game, and reduced it to NOTHING???

One thing that has always been a value added asset was the ability to keep your ship, and replace cannon when needed, up to the max allowed by ship. Now you come and tell me that whatever is on the ship is all you'll ever get?? And you have various amounts on the same class?? So, let me get this straight, you can have a 20 Gun Sloop go up against a 8 Gun Frigate and WIN??? Ugg.. remind me not to buy this stinker.

Sorry all, just makes no sense to take a wonderfully fun game and mess with the way it works. For almost 20 years we've been able to have cannons work the way they do, and now, you can't move them from ship to ship?? Is this a game, or a realistic simulator?? Come ON!?!?!?!

Most games I have played I got one ship, and kept it for the entire game. Now you tell me that I can't add cannons to my ship, to either a max allowed, or to replace the one destroyed during battle???

/Rant Off

Done, sorry, I don't even own an Xbox, but this makes me glad I don't, for I would be HIGHLY disappointed with this abomination of a classic.

My Opinion, your milage may vary..
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rupertlittlebear
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This game killing bug necessitates another game killing bug.

You only have 3 choices from here.

1) You can reduce your opponent's cannons by bombardment with round shot.

2) You cannot reduce your opponent's cannons by bombardment with round shot.

3) You can reduce your opponent's cannons by bombardment with round shot, but all cannon damage is magically repaired after battle.


Item 1 means you will always get a reduced prize because you have permanently reduced that ship's desirability as a flagship.

Item 2 means there is no purpose to an artillery duel except to maybe reduce the crew or sink the ship.

Item 3 means you don't care what you do to the enemy.
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rupertlittlebear
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfwood wrote:
Are there other changes that are as extensive as this one? In treasure hunting, dancing etc.? If there are, we may have to make separate sub-pages for all of our strategy forums for the X-Box version...
I sincerely doubt that you will need to.

This game will die within a week.

Once these game killing bugs are public information, nobody will spend money on a game this bad.
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Civrules
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. I have to admit, it is an unexpected and illogical decision. It was really unexpected…

I'm sure that if feedback was provided by other fans during that game's development, this choice would never have been made.
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