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Ships You May Have Misjudged
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Have you changed your mind about certain ships?
Yes, and it's good to learn what works better for me.
83%
 83%  [ 31 ]
No, I accurately anticipated my special vessel(s).
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
Not sure; I dont think I know enough yet.
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 37

Author Message
Dave the Knave
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cussler, sympathizing with another grizzled and puzzled swashbuckler's plight, wrote:
Hahahaha! I know how you feel, matey! In that adventure I posted, I had me a beautiful English redhead waiting for me in Maracaibo. Getting married was the last thing I had to do to complete the Ten Great Pirate Quests.

After limping into port with the spoils of war, and having defeated a far superior opponent who was an enemy of the English crown, the fair maiden said the same exact thing to me that your lass said to you.

Needless to say, I was doubting the sanity of this woman. Felt that perhaps she had spent too much time out in the Caribbean heat. I did, eventually, win her over...

Three huzzahs to ye! I have not yet won her, but I will, when business is good again...all I need is for England to pick another fight, or another nation to pick a fight with England...in the meantime, I'll marvel at the amazing 1987 vintage graphics and the white noise as clouds roll on the sea...sailing my trusty barque.
Smooth Sailing
Captain Blood, like Cussler, on the subject of barques in the current version of the game, wrote:
Barques!
Aaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What an AWFUL ship in this version of the game.
Things are useless.
Now, before anyone says anything, I'll amend that.
Things are useless TO ME.

Thanks for qualifying that, Captain. You and I take exception if someone disparages the Ship of the Line. If we own our opinion as an opinion, and don't give it as an unequivocal fact, no one can justly quarrel about it...In short, A likes blue, B likes red; so be it.

Moreover, even if we know we're right, we'll forebear, because we are far too noble and confident to ridicule someone else's folly. Let us instead have compassion, and encourage desperate people to improve themselves...for we are like them...sometimes...
Innocent

Ahem. Anyway, back to the barque. For some odd reason, the computer's barques seem to hit my mail runner more than they should. Maybe I should use a barque on the computer's pinnace-class ships?

The barque in Pirates! The Original (shall we say, PTO?) is a worthy ship. The barque in the newest version does not have the same level of respect...

Roland, seeking information that the bartenders can't give, wrote:
Did the old game give you the option of hunting pirates? In the current game that makes you popular with everyone - except pirates, of course.

Aye, you can- you can let them free if they tell you where the Treasure Fleet or Silver Train will be; or you can even hold the pirate for ransom!

I think that the French and Dutch governors will also bargain for captured pirate's returns to their families. The Spanish governors, however, will just take them, and say, gracias, adios! -and give you nothing else...it seems to me that the Spanish are in league with these rogues. I'm very suspicious now. One of the pirates was a cove with the sobriquet "That cowardly pirate, Major Mendoza!" I smell a bilge rat, mateys...

Aye, all in all, hunting pirates be a good and highly moral thing to do. The problem with hunting anybody in the old game is this- you can't see any other ships until a random encounter is generated. It goes like this:

You are loitering near Santiago. A Pop up screen appears- your lookouts see a sail, and ask you if you want to investigate! Since hunting ships is your sole purpose in the area, you answer yes. The chaps in the crow's nests identify the ship type, then the vessel's loyalty is disclosed (The Big Four, and also, pirate- also, specific pirate hunters and pirate captains). You can attack, ask for news, or sail on. The ship-to-ship action, and duelling upon boarding, are very simple, compared to the newest version.

Because your encounters are randomized, you have to wander around a bit. In the newer game, we do that too, but at least we can see our prey before we pounce on it- and choose from what position to pounce.

By the way, on the subject of captured pirate captains- there's a random chance that they'll escape while you're entering or exiting a port. It's like entrusting Thomson and Thompson (from the Adventures of Tintin) to secure the prisoners, so don't be surprised when you lose hostages...to be precise, don't hold prisoners any longer than you have to, or else you may scar your forehead doing the following...
Oops

"They got away again? Billions of blue blistering barnacles!"
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Cussler
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave the Knave wrote:


Roland, seeking information that the bartenders can't give, wrote:
Did the old game give you the option of hunting pirates? In the current game that makes you popular with everyone - except pirates, of course.

Aye, you can- you can let them free if they tell you where the Treasure Fleet or Silver Train will be; or you can even hold the pirate for ransom!. . .

. . .Because your encounters are randomized, you have to wander around a bit. In the newer game, we do that too, but at least we can see our prey before we pounce on it- and choose from what position to pounce. . .

. . .By the way, on the subject of captured pirate captains- there's a random chance that they'll escape while you're entering or exiting a port. It's like entrusting Thomson and Thompson (from the Adventures of Tintin) to secure the prisoners, so don't be surprised when you lose hostages...to be precise, don't hold prisoners any longer than you have to. . .


Yeah. This is one aspect (of many) from the old game I wish they had kept in the new version. I don't like that the Pirates, aside from the 10 Greatest, are nameless entities.

Another great way to hunt pirates was getting quests from Governors! You'd stroll into Port Royale, say, and the Governor tells you that the well-known pirate, Colonel Raymondo, is terrorizing ships in the waters off Nassau, and he wants you to stop him. So you'd sail off to Nassau and start going around in circles until you finally heard "Sail ho!" If you sank and killed the pirate, you'd still win points with the governor who gave you the assignment, but it was always better to bring 'em back alive.

And you always feared that if you visited another port before returning to Port Royale (or whereever you got the quest) that your prisoner would escape. That would be an uncomfortable conversation with the Governor:

"I captured the scurvy knave, Governor...but he escaped." Sad
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Undershaft
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always been a fan of the Frigate class, but I have begun to explore other ship classes.

I have become a big fan of the pinnace and always have one in my fleet. When fully upgraded it can do almost everything a larger ship can.

The sloops are nice. I've used a sloop of war as my standard back-up ship for years. They're fairly capable and easy to capture early in the game.

The barque was a great ship in the old version, but I don't like it now. I tried using one when I first got the game because I remembered them as being very good ships. It sucked as a pirate vessel.

The brigs are a class of ship that I have always overlooked. I need to try out a brig in my next game.

I think all galleons/fluyts/west indiamen are worthless as anything except cargo haulers. Although I am fond of the East Indiaman. I fully upgraded an east indiaman once and used it quite effectively as a pirate ship.
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Dave the Knave
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cussler wrote:
This is one aspect (of many) from the old game I wish they had kept in the new version. I don't like that the Pirates, aside from the 10 Greatest, are nameless entities.

Aye. It occurs to me, after some more tinkering with the old game, that every pirate has a courage level, rank, and name. And they seem to be unlimited. I've captured six or seven in a row. This doesn't seem to be helping me along in rank though...maybe I should be more patient...

And as ye mention, matey, the governor sends you on distant quests. I was sent from Port Royal to Vera Cruz to capture one pirate, and I sacked Gibraltar to rescue the governor's son!

On the subject of a Great Escape, Cussler further wrote:
And you always feared that if you visited another port before returning to Port Royale (or whereever you got the quest) that your prisoner would escape. That would be an uncomfortable conversation with the Governor:

"I captured the scurvy knave, Governor...but he escaped." Sad


Aye, it can happen. In case it does, I imagine the governor ought wryly to remark, "I regret then, to tell you, dear fellow, that the reward for him has also escaped."

Undershaft wrote:
I have always been a fan of the Frigate class, but I have begun to explore other ship classes.

I have become a big fan of the pinnace and always have one in my fleet. When fully upgraded it can do almost everything a larger ship can.

The sloops are nice. I've used a sloop of war as my standard back-up ship for years. They're fairly capable and easy to capture early in the game.

The barque was a great ship in the old version, but I don't like it now. I tried using one when I first got the game because I remembered them as being very good ships. It sucked as a pirate vessel.

The brigs are a class of ship that I have always overlooked. I need to try out a brig in my next game.

I think all galleons/fluyts/west indiamen are worthless as anything except cargo haulers. Although I am fond of the East Indiaman. I fully upgraded an east indiaman once and used it quite effectively as a pirate ship.

I do have a tendency to want an all-big gun fleet, like a flotilla of HMS Dreadnoughts sailing around, but, like the real-life Royal Navy pirate hunters, the right mix of ships is the best plan for success.

I find pinnace-class ships to be a particular ingredient for that success. Sloops, I take for granted sometimes, because they are so commonly encountered. Familiarity often leads to forgetfulness of value...

Brigs, for me also, are a tool waiting to be used properly. Cargo ships are useful mainly as prey.

I sailed an English merchantman as a pirate- I mean, privateer ship- but only until I captured a barque, which I used to catch a sloop! I'm not brave enough to spend too much time sailing a merchant ship...
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Captain Blood
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
I once played an entire game using an English Merchentman as my flagship (after I captured her, of course). She was the very first ship I captured in the game (playing Dutch) and she was fully upgraded except for triple hammocks when I took her. I just couldn't resist using her to see how that would work. Guns Blazing
It was at times very frustrating, as faster, more manueverable ships would sometimes sail out of sight on me. Smooth Sailing
But it was hilarious other times because I'd get into ship to ship battles and would just pummel Royal Sloops and Frigate class ships to splinters with her. She was nearly indestructible with her thick sides and iron scantlings and could take a tremendous pounding until I could close Exploding . She carried a nice weight in guns though and could give just as good she got.
All in all, I'd not do that very often, but I have to admit to a feeling of pride and accomplishment when I retired as Governer with a very high score at the end of that game. Retired in Panama
It took me longer than ever to do so, but once I did I was quite impressed with myself. Happy Smurf Pirate

Give the Brigs a try. Especially the Brig of War Loving , which is quickly becoming my favorite ship in the game next to the Mighty SoTL Worship
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davyjones
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 6 and 4 year old sons occasionally sneak on to the computer and fire up Pirates. They have figured out how to get the game started, and how to sail out of the first town. Captain SDJRISR<PGmsdiniprg or whatever they type always tried to take over ships. (apparently piracy is genetic) anyway I will get on the computer and find it paused with the pirates manning a fluyt or a merchantman, with the original 40 (or fewer) crew and zero gold and food. (They dont know how to take goods off captured ships.) I assume they lose the next fight and lose the sloop???

So, I will give it a go with what they have, just to get their pirate some sense of stability and let them retire more than a pickpocket. Fluyts are more difficult, unless you hang out around the St Kitts area and catch ships in narrow alleys. I personally prefer the sloop or frigate classes, but apparently any ship will do.
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Dave the Knave
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That great enthusiast of the game, Captain Blood wrote:
I once played an entire game using an English Merchentman as my flagship (after I captured her, of course). She was the very first ship I captured in the game (playing Dutch) and she was fully upgraded except for triple hammocks when I took her. I just couldn't resist using her to see how that would work...

Thanks for the story matey. Although I frown darkly on predations at the expense of my (generally) beloved England, it's good to hear that a merchantman, properly handled and developed, is a credible ship.
By the way, did you know that if you start as the English in 1600, you actually start with a merchantman?
davyjones, reporting on the upbringing of the next generation of swashbucklers, wrote:
My 6 and 4 year old sons occasionally sneak on to the computer and fire up Pirates. They have figured out how to get the game started, and how to sail out of the first town. Captain SDJRISR<PGmsdiniprg or whatever they type always tried to take over ships. (apparently piracy is genetic) anyway I will get on the computer and find it paused with the pirates manning a fluyt or a merchantman, with the original 40 (or fewer) crew and zero gold and food. (They dont know how to take goods off captured ships.) I assume they lose the next fight and lose the sloop???

So, I will give it a go with what they have, just to get their pirate some sense of stability and let them retire more than a pickpocket. Fluyts are more difficult, unless you hang out around the St Kitts area and catch ships in narrow alleys. I personally prefer the sloop or frigate classes, but apparently any ship will do.

Cool

Children do some fun things...as well as odd...but we've all been that way, and it's neat to see our own childhood wonder and learning in them again.
It's remarkable, too, how little 'uns take to computers...when I was their age, the Atari 2600 was the most complex computer in my cabin.

Your young pirates don't yet have the mechanics of the game all worked out, but they likely will soon. For example, I and a friend of mine have been playing the original Age of Empires on-line. His five year old son joins in as an ally- but he is learning fast, and will be a formidable opponent!

Why not play a game of Pirates! together, with you as Captain of course, davyjones? It's not really the game that matters- the sea urchins would probably enjoy spending time with ye most of all! And it would be a right good memory when this time be long past...
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davyjones
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually we do play together occasionally. I let them do the battles, and I do the romancing Wink I did see where a couple of online ratings listed Pirates as a good game for 6-10 year olds. No blood or language, but with a bar scene and cleavage. And some sort of loose history lesson, along with general ideas related to sailing into versus with the wind.

Maybe I just need to use this as an incentive to learning to read, where they could actually figure out what ship works best, how to get goods, etc. Of course,
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Captain Blood
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
I knew about the 1600 Merchentman connection, I've never done it but I knew about it.
Real life Pirates had to use whatever ship they had to start with. I imagine Merchantmen were about the easiest ship to come by.
But you do have me curious. I'll have to start games of all nationalities in all the eras and see what ships you get started out with on each.
It might be some fun games.
I have been in a rut lately, mostly playing Dutch, mostly starting in the easier eras...
I don't know why, I'm just lazy I guess.
Might be time to start seeking out some new ways to get started.
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Roland
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a complete table of starting forces by era and nation.
Code:

   Nation    Ship        Crew   Gold   Food   Cannon

1600
   Dutch     Fluyt         20   1,000   14    12
   English   Merchantman   50   250   12-13   12
   French    Sloop         40   100   13       8
   Spanish   Pinnace       20   500   14       8

1620
   Dutch     Brig          50    10   12-13   8
   English   Brigantine    40    10   13     10
   French    Barque        40   100   13     10
   Spanish   Pinnace       20   500   14      8

1640
   Dutch     Brigantine    40    10   13     10
   English   Sloop         40   100   13      8
   French    Pinnace       20   500   14      8
   Spanish   Mail Runner   30   250   13-14   8

1660
   Dutch     Sloop         40   100   13      8
   English   Sloop         40   100   13      8
   French    Sloop         40   100   13      8
   Spanish   Sloop         40   100   13      8

1680
   Dutch     Sloop of War   40   10   13      10
   English   Sloop of War   50   10   12-13    8
   French    Brigantine     50   10   12-13    8
   Spanish   Fast Galleon   50   10   12-13   16

I lifted most of this information from the "Expanded" spreadsheet available in the downloads section, and then I checked every piece of data, making corrections as necessary. Wherever there are two different numbers for food, the higher number applies when playing at higher difficulty levels.

This is one of several tables I've put together for my own use. I suppose I should format them all and upload them for the whole Pirates community.
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Capt. Cannon
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Blood, in a rather harsh and condemming matter, wrote:
Barques!
Aaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What an AWFUL ship in this version of the game.
Things are useless.
Now, before anyone says anything, I'll amend that.
Things are useless TO ME.
I remembered how much I used to like the barques in Pirates! Gold. I woud consider it a good day when I snapped up a barque. So when I started playing the newest version of Pirates I rejoiced to see a barque come over the horizon and I snatched it up and made it my flagship immediately.
I got my butt kicked in every battle after that until I wised up and switched back to the sloop they gave me at the start.
Since then, I won't even take a barque into my fleet. I sink the useless things immediately after I take off the plunder.

To each their own, but I'd rather sail the Carribean in a one cannon Fluyt with a broken compass than a fully upgraded barque.



I started one game with a fluyt

With that, i captured a costal barque

With that, i captured Henry Morgan's large frigate.

Not financially a smart move, but it proves the worth of a barque.
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Captain Blood
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roland,
Thanks! That's MUCH easier than trying to figure that out myself. Thumbs Up

Cannon,
I'm quite certain that a barque can be used more than effectively as a flagship in this game by many, many folks.
Just not by me.
I believe myself to be a fair minded person, so after I posted your referenced quote I saved my current game and then went hunting. I pounced on the first barque I saw, captured it and added it to my fleet.
I then drug it around with me and got it nicely upgraded; cotton sails, copper plate, iron scantlings, grape shot, bronze cannons and triple hammocks (as previously stated, I have very little use for chain shot, I'll take it for free just so I can say I have it, but I'd never pay for it and I can't even think of the last time I actually used it).
Once I got her as upgraded as I'd ever need a ship, I made her my flaship and went out hunting.
I soon had a Pirate Hunter coming out after me from Santiago. She was a Spanish Sloop of War, the only upgrades she had were cotton sails and bronze cannons.
I have never been pasted so badly in my entire Pirates! carreer in a sea battle. I got so shot up I lost half of my men before I could close with that scurvy dog and beat him into submission with my blade.
I had the wind guage to start, but my ship couldn't sail out of its own way much less duck and weave to avoid incoming cannon balls.
Hell, I can almost always manuever my might SoTL Worship out of the way of about 95% of the cannon balls lobbed at me by my opponents if I DON'T have the wind guage, but my little barque Urghing? just had to take the butt whipping she so richly deserved.
But...
I didn't want it to be said that I only gave it one shot and gave up, so on I sailed.
I dropped into Port Royale, where the shipmaster called me a bloomin' idiot for using a barque as a flagship, and got her patched up and ready for another round of getting royally whupped, I mean Pirating.
Off I sailed in the direction of Santiago again, the sounds of derisive laughter pouring out of the streets of PR behind me, which I stoicly ignored as I made my weigh.
Off the coast of Santiago once again I encountered a French barque. She was a Grain Transport. I figured my nearly fully upgraded barque could whup a lubberly GT, so to battle I went.
Well, I did manage to take the other, nonupgraded barque, in a totally fair fight. Mostly because she lowered her sails and raised a white flag before I even ever got off a shot.
Victory was mine! Victorious
Off I sailed eastward, towards the mostly French coastline. I encountered a few merchantmen, a couple of more barques, and even a French Sloop that was engaged in smuggling activities, all of which I managed to capture without getting too royally pasted in the process.
Then came the acid test, a French Pirate Hunter. She was a Frigate, nicely upgraded. Her beauty and grace as she fairly danced over the waves was nigh on dazzling.
I engaged her with my lovely barque, aptly named "The Flying Pig" (because I had always said I would not have a barque as my flagship until pigs fly...) and...
Got my arse kicked for me good.
That French frigate friggin' pounded me nearly to splinters as she sailed in circles around my newly renamed barque, "Pig nearly on the Seabottom", and literally rained iron down on my frail timbers.
Once we closed, with a loss of nearly fifty men on my part, I was able to use my not inconsequential skills with a rapier to beat the French Captain into surrender.

The Flying Pig was sold to the shipwright in Port Royale, who had the grace not to laugh TOO much right in my face as he purchased her. That game was then not only forgotten, she was totally overwritten.
I went back to my saved game from before I took The Pig, hunted her down again (with her stil in the role of a cargo ship) and sank her with repeated broadsides of round shot as she sat there and, in her own inimicable fashion, took the pounding until she becaome one with the sea bed.

If you like the barque, maker her your own and Pirate with her to your hearts content. Smooth Sailing
But, me hearty, I'll not be having anything more to do with the useless crates of splinters meself. Lost
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Roland
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Blood,

Like you, I never use chain shot. But I have heard of one good use for it. After a sea battle, when you are sailing around picking up men who fell overboard, you have to prevent the game from leaving the battle screen. As long as you have shot in the air, the AI thinks the battle is still on, and you can continue to rescue sailors before the sharks get them. Chain shot, with its high arcing path, stays in the air longer than round or grape shot, making it ideal for this use.
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Captain Blood
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roland,
I had NO idea you could do that.
Thanks for the tip. That could prove quite useful.

I mostly don't like chain shot because of the amount of monetary damage it does to my prizes, not to mention how badly it slows down the ships I'm trying to take back to port to sell.
So I don't use it for combat, at all.
But now I know a good use for it, I'll have a bit more sympathy for it.
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Dave the Knave
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

davyjones wrote:
Actually we do play together occasionally. I let them do the battles, and I do the romancing Wink...

A chorus of huzzahs for ye matey! The family that buccaneers together will stay together!Thumbs Up

Roland helpfully wrote:


Nation Ship Crew Gold Food Cannon

1600
Dutch Fluyt 20 1,000 14 12
English Merchantman 50 250 12-13 12
French Sloop 40 100 13 8
Spanish Pinnace 20 500 14 8

1620
Dutch Brig 50 10 12-13 8
English Brigantine 40 10 13 10
French Barque 40 100 13 10
Spanish Pinnace 20 500 14 8

1640
Dutch Brigantine 40 10 13 10
English Sloop 40 100 13 8
French Pinnace 20 500 14 8
Spanish Mail Runner 30 250 13-14 8

1660
Dutch Sloop 40 100 13 8
English Sloop 40 100 13 8
French Sloop 40 100 13 8
Spanish Sloop 40 100 13 8

1680
Dutch Sloop of War 40 10 13 10
English Sloop of War 50 10 12-13 8
French Brigantine 50 10 12-13 8
Spanish Fast Galleon 50 10 12-13 16

Thanks, Roland. I've got a copy of the ships you start with in each era depending on nationality (from some FAQs I found online somewhere), but your list has further important details.

Capt. Cannon, defending a likely secret weapon, the barque, wrote:
I started one game with a fluyt

With that, i captured a costal barque

With that, i captured Henry Morgan's large frigate.

Not financially a smart move, but it proves the worth of a barque.


I'm supposing that the barque, because of her sail configuration, sails fairly well close-hauled (perpendicular to the wind) than sailing large (before the wind, as a merchantman or frigate would). As always, getting the proper weather gauge over the enemy is your first consideration.

Captain Blood, recounting his barque-sailing battles, wrote:
I have never been pasted so badly... just had to take the butt whipping...got her patched up and ready...I did manage to take the other, nonupgraded barque...I encountered a few merchantmen, a couple of more barques, and even a French Sloop that was engaged in smuggling activities, all of which I managed to capture without getting too royally pasted in the process... the acid test, a French Pirate Hunter. She was a Frigate, nicely upgraded...Got my arse kicked for me good...with a rapier...beat the French Captain into surrender...[my barque] was sold to the shipwright in Port Royale, who had the grace not to laugh TOO much right in my face as he purchased her. That game was then not only forgotten, she was totally overwritten.

Besides all that, it sounds like you enjoyed every moment, Captain!
Smile
Roland, with yet more helpful- uh, help- wrote:
I never use chain shot. But I have heard of one good use for it. After a sea battle, when you are sailing around picking up men who fell overboard, you have to prevent the game from leaving the battle screen. As long as you have shot in the air, the AI thinks the battle is still on, and you can continue to rescue sailors before the sharks get them. Chain shot, with its high arcing path, stays in the air longer than round or grape shot, making it ideal for this use.

That is a great tip. Often my Ship of the Line will move too close to the capitulating enemy while I'm picking up sailors. With this use of chain shot, I can forestall that premature surrender, and pick up more waterlogged swabs from the sea...
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