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Frigates vs. Pinnaces
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JackPrat
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:39 pm    Post subject: Frigates vs. Pinnaces Reply with quote

Apologies if this has been previously discussed at length, but when it comes to playing Pirates, it all seems to boil down to ship preference.

It seems there are two major candidates for the best ships to use a flagships: Frigates or Pinnaces. I will present my argument for one. I would like to hear convincing contrary arguments. Maybe I will change by tune next time I play.

The main issue I have with using a war canoe or mail runner as a flagship is that it forces a choice between one of two options when engaging at sea:

1) Run straight in and board. While this is a commonly used tactic to avoid ship damage, it will result it crew losses during the fight if well outnumbered. I also find fencing to be repetitive, especially compared to ship battles.

2) Peck away at your enemy with tiny barrages until they surrender. This tactic is also tedious and could result in a fencing match anyway just to avoid the sheer boredom of finishing the task.


I find it much more satisfying to blast away with 48 cannons from a Ship of the Line. Even a Large Frigate is comparable fun. I have accidentally sunk a ship from a well aimed initial barrage, but so be it! All part of the excitement of wielding the most dangerous ship on the seas.

Sometimes I don't even need to fire a shot for the ship to surrender! Unless there is another game mechanic at play, I believe the intimidation factor is huge when hosting a large crew on a large ship. I haven't read about this in any of the guides, but I have plundered merchant ships just be sailing right up to them! They don't strike their colors, but when I get in close I immediately see the plunder screen - all without firing once! (Also, these were Spanish merchants I tested this on with which I was in good standing, so relations isn't a factor.)

Has anyone else experienced this? I imagine it doesn't happen when coming in hot sporting a few dudes on a canoe... I am currently playing at Adventurer difficulty however. (I know, I know, I will level up next time I divide plunder!)


Also, I have little trouble keeping a ~170 member crew from mutinying. It only takes 170k gold to keep them from flipping out and with 350k gold they should be content forever. Losing crew from continual boarding with a war canoe has to be a thing which can only be remedied by having excess Pinnaces in a fleet to carry extra crew and food. Not to mention that you are feeding boat babysitters who just watch any plundering from afar.

If captained well, a sole plundering Frigate should need less port breaks than a fleet of Pinnaces making it more self reliable and able to siege any area for longer. Also, it's a veritable moving castle that can easily bristle with 450 men to stomp on any garrison. It is a fast, maneuverable ship and I have no trouble outmaneuvering volleys to avoid damage and escorts to take a large bounty with no effort.

All in all, I enjoy ship battles more than the inevitable fencing match upon boarding a feisty target. I find it much more satisfying to dance a maneuverable enough Frigate around avoiding volleys and forcing a surrender to acquire loot.
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Mr. Blue
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easily blasting enemies with a massive broadside is bound to get dull sooner or later, and capturing ships without a fight is duller. Besides, massive broadsides sometimes sink the enemy leaving you with nothing. If you find that way of pirating more interesting than sword fights, then either you are playing at too low a difficulty level or you might want to find another game. A really difficult sword fight is one of the best challenges the game has to offer. If you think otherwise, beat Monty in his lair on Swash, and get back to us then.

You don't need to have a fleet of pinnaces, by the way. One war canoe and one larger ship works just fine.
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Roland
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the advantages of a pinnace is that you don't need a big crew to sail it - which is useful to get you through that period when you have to keep your crew small to stave off mutiny.
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JackPrat
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Blue wrote:
Easily blasting enemies with a massive broadside is bound to get dull sooner or later, and capturing ships without a fight is duller. Besides, massive broadsides sometimes sink the enemy leaving you with nothing. If you find that way of pirating more interesting than sword fights, then either you are playing at too low a difficulty level or you might want to find another game. A really difficult sword fight is one of the best challenges the game has to offer. If you think otherwise, beat Monty in his lair on Swash, and get back to us then.

You don't need to have a fleet of pinnaces, by the way. One war canoe and one larger ship works just fine.


Fair enough Mr. Blue. I actually just upgraded to Rogue and beating Monty is tough even in good health. He is unbelievably fast! I am actually playing with a new hotkey setup for a faster response time. It is taking a little relearning, but do you have any suggestions aside from i, k, , for jump parry duck? If nothing else, this does make fencing much more entertaining than thrust spamming my way to an easy victory.

Isn't the whole idea of pinnaces to not be slowed down by any larger ship? Or would a frig not slow it down?

Roland wrote:
One of the advantages of a pinnace is that you don't need a big crew to sail it - which is useful to get you through that period when you have to keep your crew small to stave off mutiny.


That's very true, especially if it's in the middle of a long voyage. Downgrading by downgrading the flagship is a simple way to reduce crew size as opposed to losing battles.

I assume a small crew means frequent re-ups on recruits though. Loss of crew is inevitable for any length sword fight at any higher difficulty right?

I am definitely considering going to a war canoe after defeating Monty's Indian security force.
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Captain Teague
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JackPrat wrote:
Mr. Blue wrote:
Easily blasting enemies with a massive broadside is bound to get dull sooner or later, and capturing ships without a fight is duller. Besides, massive broadsides sometimes sink the enemy leaving you with nothing. If you find that way of pirating more interesting than sword fights, then either you are playing at too low a difficulty level or you might want to find another game. A really difficult sword fight is one of the best challenges the game has to offer. If you think otherwise, beat Monty in his lair on Swash, and get back to us then.

You don't need to have a fleet of pinnaces, by the way. One war canoe and one larger ship works just fine.


Fair enough Mr. Blue. I actually just upgraded to Rogue and beating Monty is tough even in good health. He is unbelievably fast! I am actually playing with a new hotkey setup for a faster response time. It is taking a little relearning, but do you have any suggestions aside from i, k, , for jump parry duck? If nothing else, this does make fencing much more entertaining than thrust spamming my way to an easy victory.

Isn't the whole idea of pinnaces to not be slowed down by any larger ship? Or would a frig not slow it down?

Roland wrote:
One of the advantages of a pinnace is that you don't need a big crew to sail it - which is useful to get you through that period when you have to keep your crew small to stave off mutiny.


That's very true, especially if it's in the middle of a long voyage. Downgrading by downgrading the flagship is a simple way to reduce crew size as opposed to losing battles.

I assume a small crew means frequent re-ups on recruits though. Loss of crew is inevitable for any length sword fight at any higher difficulty right?

I am definitely considering going to a war canoe after defeating Monty's Indian security force.

The speed of your fleet is determined solely by your flagship, and speed degrades are based on the number of ships in your fleet and how damaged they are (assuming you have the minimum crew for all of them). If you have two merchant ships with full crew and no damage, then all things being equal, your fleet will be faster with a war canoe/pinnace/mail runner than with a frigate class ship.

Personally, I use a pinnace/mail runner as the flag when I am sailing (to get the maximum fleet speed) and use either a sloop, brig, or frigate as my warship. Since you loose the same amount of speed when carrying one or two extra ships, I will often grab either a merchantman or East Indiaman to carry cargo, negating the need to drag along those damaged enemy merchant ships.
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Roland
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Early in the game, if I have a mail runner I don't keep any other permanent ships in my fleet. If I need more cargo space I just hold off on selling some of my prizes until I can dispose of the cargo. Later in the game, when mutiny is no longer an issue, I usually keep a frigate as a second ship - mostly for the cargo space, but also for fighting if my mail runner gets damaged.
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Salty Dog
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a war canoe, pinnace or mail runner and do not have secondary ships. The only time I do is when I capture a ship and take it to a city to sell for cash. Sailing a small ship, by itself, cuts at least two years off the game time. Instead of retiring at age 34, you retire at 32 and I have retired as young as age 27. It is like flying around the world in a Ferrrari vs. a truck. Use a small boat and do not carry any guns. Do not use cannon, dodge the broadsides, board, and cut them up with your sword. That is by far the best way to play this game.
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Red Rabbit
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Frigates vs. Pinnaces Reply with quote

JackPrat wrote:
Sometimes I don't even need to fire a shot for the ship to surrender! Unless there is another game mechanic at play, I believe the intimidation factor is huge when hosting a large crew on a large ship. I haven't read about this in any of the guides, but I have plundered merchant ships just be sailing right up to them! They don't strike their colors, but when I get in close I immediately see the plunder screen - all without firing once! (Also, these were Spanish merchants I tested this on with which I was in good standing, so relations isn't a factor.)

Has anyone else experienced this? I imagine it doesn't happen when coming in hot sporting a few dudes on a canoe... I am currently playing at Adventurer difficulty however. (I know, I know, I will level up next time I divide plunder!)

Yes. Have experienced that too.
Also I think that your ranking (and stats) in Top Pirates menu/list effect too to the surrender.

JackPrat wrote:
It seems there are two major candidates for the best ships to use a flagships: Frigates or Pinnaces. I will present my argument for one. I would like to hear convincing contrary arguments. Maybe I will change by tune next time I play.

Recommend you to try Brigs sometimes, especially Brig of War ("BoW") with upgrades. She's very good ship in the class between the Sloops and Frigates. You can have quite big crew (200) and lot of cannons (32; same as with the Frigate). But her size is smaller than Frigate so it's easier evading incoming cannon fire and she is fast enough. You can steal upgraded BoW from Captain Kidd.
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Rusty Edge
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. You should try it.

One of these threads convinced me to try it once. The firepower of a frigate combined with the handiness of a brig, or something of the sort.

When I tried it I felt constrained, because it couldn't match the frigate's speed before the wind, and it didn't seem as handy as a Royal Sloop. In other words, while it sounds like the best of both worlds, it felt more to me like a compromise.

I went back to using a Royal Sloop with a large frigate or SOL.


Ultimately, it's a game and it's meant to be fun. If dodging canon balls is fun, rather than immersion breaking, or if beating into the wind bores you to tears, rather than drawing you deeper into the story, that will affect your choice of ship. Likewise, if you see yourself as the agent of the crown, capturing cities for the Empire, rather than a free-lance swashbuckler out for personal fortune and immortal glory, it will affect your crew size requirements.

Adventure awaits! Arr!
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fleetp
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusty Edge wrote:

Ultimately, it's a game and it's meant to be fun.


Totally agree!
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Mr. Blue
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JackPrat wrote:


but do you have any suggestions aside from i, k, , for jump parry duck?



Sorry. I haven't played in ages and was never much of a swordsman. You can probably search for whole threads on the topic though, or start a fencing tips thread.
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JackPrat
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Teague, Roland and Salty Dog, thanks for the advice and encouragement. I have since leveled up to Rogue on a new character and the higher difficulty alone made it apparent that I had to chance by play style. I wasn't aware of the speed advantages at lower difficulties. My SOL aint the volley dodging beast she used to me. The improved AI and speed of the enemy ships makes open and shut sea battles less frequent and nearly impossible without sustaining increased enemy fire.

I started my new character in 1640 with the Spanish and have used the Mail Carrier just about the whole time. Closing in asap for a much more challenging duel with the opposing captain is absolutely the way to go. Even though I am on Rogue compared to Adventurer, I can win duels much quicker than thrust spamming with a rapier.

Faster victories, less ship damage on both sides, greater mobility and crew happiness sustainability has absolutely gotten me to reconsider my play style. I have a much better keyboard setup for fencing as well. Pinnaces it is!! I am absolutely convinced of their overall superiority (esp at higher difficulties).

Aside from incorporating larger ships in the fleet to carry troops and food for land domination, I see no need to use ships larger than Pinnaces for long term use.

A higher difficulty would have naturally forced the matter over time, but I really appreciate the helpful responses. This second game I stared is already more enjoyable.
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JackPrat
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Rabbit and Rusty Edge, I am curious to try out the BoW. It's stats says it's slower than the Frig. Wind effects aside, does it's smaller profile allow it to turn and avoid incoming fire easier? I haven't' seen any maneuverability rankings for ships, but with a smaller frame I imagine it turns faster and has less surface area to hit. Speed does seem to help a lot in terms of avoiding fire, but I will have to try it out. I'll snag a BoW next chance I get.
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JackPrat
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Blue wrote:
JackPrat wrote:


but do you have any suggestions aside from i, k, , for jump parry duck?



Sorry. I haven't played in ages and was never much of a swordsman. You can probably search for whole threads on the topic though, or start a fencing tips thread.


Thanks, I need to peruse the Fencing section for sure. I have a new keymap that allows for a shorter defense response time. I'll have to see if it's been brought up already. Pretty much it's a horizontal layout as opposed to a vertical one. All three fingers are on defense buttons and the various attacks are right above them. This way one finger doens't need to cover three different defensive moves.
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Roland
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the MODS section of this site, under Scenarios, you can download the Fencing Academy. It is a series of savegame files at all difficulty levels with various skill, equipment, and age options. In each scenario, you can fight a criminal, the captain of the guard, and the jealous fiancé. I used this to hone my fencing skills when I was starting out.

There also used to be a Dancing School, but I can't find it now.
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