Frigates vs. Pinnaces

Gun Pierson · Gunner Posts: 809 **5053 Gold** -

This has been an old debate on the forums here and it's all up to what the player prefers really.

I really like small ships like the war canoe because it can sail so fast which helps to complete game goals quick, especially early in the game. There are drawbacks though like the small crew which is not enough to take out Montalban's hide out for example. So I temporarely need to add bigger ships then to get a bigger crew to fight that land battle. On higher difficulties I also might get overwhelmed and captured when I board ships with large crews and I don't fence well. I hate it when that happens lol.

Sometimes a big ship can hit like a truck when I made a sailing mistake, often taking out my sails or something, leaving me helpless like a sitting duck. Smile

It's all part of the fun really.

Late in my career I might switch to Frigates or Ship of the Line, even to slow ships which can hold a lot of cargo like a Fluyt if I want to continue as a trader. I kind of like this flexibility the game offers. You can be a pirate, a pirate hunter, a merchantman and the game offers us a range of ships to fulfill that role accordingly.

If the three small ships indeed have the same speed then I will try to get a mail runner in the future. I'm not saying 'no' to a few more guns and a bigger crew. Wink

Pirate · Helmsman Posts: 5589 **109759 Gold** -

I just need a pontoon cooler of beer and some supermodels in bikinis . The rest of you can sail whatever. Surprised

ronnraymore · Seaman Posts: 131 **4823 Gold** -

I agree that the small, highly maneuverable ships, when properly outfitted to move quickly, resist damage, and carry enough fighters is the best choice. I have tried all including brigantine classes, and the problem with them is that the sailing characteristics are wrong!( These ships are the favored because they sail all points, all weather, and run like rabbits, except in this game which was created by ignorant landlubbers who had no interest in reading and learning about the subject in order to be right.

I prefer the Military Pinnace (aka Mail Runner) but have started with easily obtained war canoes, used to capture Pinnaces, and used until the offer of escorting my fav... Mail Runner comes up.

A few improvements are needed. First, get copper... while not slippery in itself copper is toxic to marine organisms, that will attach and turn the bottom of the ship into a floating reef if left alone. While those captains without the coin to afford copper...very expensive... running up on a sand beach at low tide was a way of cleaning the bottom to improve sailing.

Next, cotton sails...much improved speed and turning. Followed by reinforcing the hull to resist damage... scantlings.

Bronze cannon, fine grained powder, and grape and chain shot are fine if you make it a practice to first long-range bombard the target to get it softened up a bit...sometimes can slow down the target.

However, the vessel is a force delivery system meant to get the fighters, triple hammocks are necessary, onto the target ship in enough numbers to be effective. Since the outcome depends almost entirely on you, the captain, in a mano y mano sword fight, it is best if you are fully outfitted with all the charms for swordplay... loose or silk shirt, balance sword set, leather tunic and metal jacket...then you are ready for anything except Montie with a full crew.

I have taken on all ships, frigates, war galleons, SOTL, and once onboard made quick work of making the captain jump overboard... blood letting is not necessary since most such fights stopped when the losing side realized he was out classed and surrendered his sword, as a gentleman should.

The only exception is Montie, who is actually a demon in human form. When he has most of his crew intact he will not be outfought. For this reason, early in the game you need a ship with geater broadside delivery. The Sloop of War is the minimal, but it takes a very long time to destroy the galleon and kill off the crew. When Montie is alone he is not effective and you can easily win. Do not get close to his ship while maneuvering in the ship fight... you will be magically teleported, even without the Enterprise present, onto the ship while Montie still has enough crew to be unbeatable. Only once was I able to defeat him when my ship came withing grapeshot range and I suddenly found myself on his ship. It helped that I was still very young, near the start of the game, and outfitted with the above sword fighting charms.

Small ships do not stall out when tacking into the wind, and every other vessel will do. This makes it possible to maneuver around the target and locate the safe zones to swoop in at high speed and board. You can brave a broad ship head-on if properly outfitted to resist damage, but this can be problematic.

I usually find that by anticipating the broadside I can move out of the path and attack at a safe zone angle until the target does its magical "Twist", even when at 0-1 knot! (disgusting) presenting a broadside if you do not quickly change direction to escape the zone.

Remember, the key is getting all your fighters onboard the target...try to not take losses in getting there.

Salty Dog · Sailing Master Posts: 10060 **191991 Gold** -

Believe us, the game really is more fun using a war canoe. It is a challenge but the little boat can dodge the broadsides and close very quickly. Attack from upwind but when it is time to actually close on the enemy have the wind at your side and you will go like the devil.

Small boats really do speed up the game by two years. If you normally retire at age 34, you will retire at age 32 by using a small boat and will usually be in better health. And that is worth something isn't it?

A small boat is like cruising the world in a Ferrari instead of a large SUV.

sparticus · Helmsman Posts: 5818 **44872 Gold** -

Salty Dog · Sailing Master Posts: 10060 **191991 Gold** -

Now that really is VERY IMPRESSIVE! Very few have done that, nice job!

sparticus · Helmsman Posts: 5818 **44872 Gold** -

ronnraymore · Seaman Posts: 131 **4823 Gold** -

That is why I try to snag at least a sloop of war at the very start of the game. Working the eastern Carib the shipping is more varied and sometimes you can find a pirate, which nobody really gets mad at you if you snag one of them. The bigger the better... sometimes I get lucky and snag a Brig or even Brig of War. These ships are far better for going after the Demon Montey. They quickly dispatch his crew and reduce the crew to himself, making it possible to take him, and quickly. Best to get cotton sails, copper bottom, grape shot...makes reduction of Montey's crew so much easier, and the bigger ship is not nearly as nimble as the pinnaces.

Also, if the chart fragment is not usable in finding his lair, push the reset button and try again until you get a good map fragment. The big ship then is a very nice cargo ship with the added bonus of being a hellacious fighting ship, if need be. Also with triple hammocks they carry an army for storming cities or Montey hideouts.

I usually do my best to snag a War Pinnace (mail runner sounds too pansy). Fully outfitted they carry 120 crew, enough for most situations, are so maneuverable they rarely get hit, if you know how to sail them. Lesser Pinnaces will work if a War Pinnace is not available, you can only get them from governors that want you to deliver documents to the rival nation governor. War canoes have only one use... snagging a Pinnace or War Pinnace, should one show up unexpectedly. Just too little crew, even with triples the crew is marginal. I agree that if you really want to work at it a properly handled war canoe can be used if you really want to spend the time wearing the Demon's crew down. However, you only want to do it once, making the getting a usable map fragment highly unlikely, since the replay becomes very boring, and you need to use the toilet by then, or a Star Trek rerun is on TV.

Sometimes the game is rigged so that no pinnaces are available at the start, and you have to make do with the sloop you have. Similar challenge to using a war canoe, but if the hint to Montey's location comes at the very start then you need to take advantage of it. Having the 100K GC and the fully staffed experts make the game doable without having to buy out a grumpy crew. It is possible to use the sloop, but it takes forever, especially if you cant find grape shot.

Following winds to all.

ronnraymore · Seaman Posts: 131 **4823 Gold** -

You did not consider Option 3: Out maneuver your target.

I make use of the War Pinnace (aka mail runner - how mundane) fully tricked out with all options.

The copper, linen sails, and scantlings make the ship so fast and maneuverable that I can sail around broadsides from all ships, even the Evils War and Flag galleons, Treasure Galleons with 48 guns, and just about anything except for those with the stupid twisting factor that spins a ship faster than my 14-15 knot circling pinnace can move. Even then the scantlings make the pinnace so resistant to fire that I often board and take the prize without damage to my flag.

They also seem to be the fastest ship (excluding the Evils War Galleons and Treasure galleons which have supernatural sailing speeds - except when they are due at a port where I am waiting, in which case they take hundreds of days to arrive).

I have tried all other big ships and find that they lack in certain aspects that make universal use impractical. I do try to snag a War Brig early in the game to use against Montey...reduces the time spent turning his Flag Galleon into kindling. I will settle for a Brig or Brigantine, even a sloop of war if the game is rigged against my getting access to the bigger ships. The War Brig with its 32 gun (16 broadside) can destroy anything afloat, and carry enough crew with triple hammocks to take any prize.

The surrender of vessels is rare, too rare to be depended on. The boarding is key with enough crew to stave off the defenders while you hack away at the captain. The sword fighting is so Mario-corrupted that only the hacking attack works...anything else generates a circus acrobatic display that has no place in this or any game. Taking the captain is end-game and better than bashing up the prize by cannon-fire.

Give the War Pinnace a try with the full configuration and it is a lot more fun sailing around the cannonballs and swooping down on the prize. The 6 ball cannonade is helpful if not immediately disabling.

Another complaint is that while you can only fire one broadside the reloading is for both side, really stupid. In reality a good ship captain fires one side then turns to fire the other, not reloading unfired cannons! The delay while unfired cannon are reloaded is just disgusting, but what can you expect from the people that developed the action scheme?(

Mr. Blue · Rigger Posts: 1947 **68595 Gold** -

ronnraymore · Seaman Posts: 131 **4823 Gold** -

Thanks for the agreement with my complaint about the Evils sailing speed, nice to know others are also disgusted by the lack of uniformity in this game.

" ... the mistakes that we male and female mortals make when we have our own way might fairly raise some wonder that we are so fond of it. " George Eliot

Yep... too bad we get only one pass at it, and the lessons learned cannot be carried on to the next life...would make living in this reality a lot more efficient.