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kvollmer
Cutthroat
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 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:26 am Post subject: Not ballroom |
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Hey I just bought Pirate's and I love the game. When I looked you guys up though I noticed on this website and this forum that a lot of people call the dancing ballroom or waltz. Now please bare with me because of my pickiness but I submit to you that the dancing in this game can not be called either.
While its difficult to define the terms; being a Bronze 3 level overall ballroom dancer and bronze 4 in waltz I can tell you that the dancing in this game is nothing like what I do.
First of all it should be pointed out that much of the music is actually a Vienesse Waltz. The difference is in how fast the beats go. For example a measure in a regular waltz may take 1 a half to two seconds in a V. Waltz it only takes about a second sometimes less. (Consequently V. Waltz is a lot harder)
Now I will discuss the reasons why I would refer to this as a formal line dance as opposed to ballroom. (I should also point out while its not easy to do on the keyboard the dancing in this is much easier to learn)
All ballroom dances (especially Waltz) live in constant contact and frame between the partners. This dancing lacks that frame. In order to dance correctly you have to master frame as it is the most important thing to learn. (If your frame is bad your whole dance is bad no matter how much you know.) That in itself is the first reason.
The second reason is based on who leads. In a Waltz it would be extremely difficult for a woman to lead in the first place because of her height disadvantage. (Plus its extremly non-traditional) The man leads out of tradition and because most of the time they are the taller one. Center of gravity issues make it very very difficult for the shorter or lighter partner to lead the taller or heaveir partner. But in this based on her hand signals she is actually leading the dance. This is another reason I refuse to call it ballroom because all ballroom is lead almost exclusivly by feel instead of by sight. Almost all women who have any kind of ballroom dancing ability what so ever can do the entire dance blindfolded. The only reason that you don't do this is because the follow acts as a "rearview mirror" and sqeezes the leads shoulder if someone is behind them. The leader can't because he has to "drive" and make sure they don't run into anything.
A third reason is because honestly the patterns are so much easier. Give me one hour to work with a good dancing partner on it and we could go through a whole song and do a flourish on every step in Real Life. (A non-dancer could learn it all in 3)
Lastly I can tell you its not Waltz because of the time period. While Waltz was just invented in the early 17th century it never really caught on amoung elites til later. At the time it was considered a form of legalized rape. (They where kind of sqemish about male/female physical contact)
Also if I tried doing real waltz or V. Waltz in boots I would probably end up breaking my legs.
Again sorry for being picky but I couldn't get past the fact that its not ballroom or waltz. (By the way if you want to see real ballroom watch "Shall we dance" even though mistakes where made in this movie 90% of its right.)
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Kirk Vollmer
Don't ever call me Captain Kirk.
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Gun Pierson
Gunner
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Hi there 
First of all (before I forget) welcome aboard. Great background info you give here. I wouldn't call it being picky. If it's your field and you know what it is or what it certainly is not, we can learn something here, at least I did. |
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Nukenin
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: |
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It's just Dance Dance Revolution for the 1600s. That's all I see. 
Quite illuminating as to why it's techically not "ballroom" or "waltz" as we know it (well, as you know it ).
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Mycroft Stanyer
Seaman
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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...oh, I'm sure what gets called "ballroom" in the game is done so for the sake of brevity.
After all, it's not like the in-game sword duels could honestly be called an accurate portrayal of real-life sword fighting. |
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Nukenin
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Actually, in the game (and manual) I don't believe any reference is made beyond dancing at the ball.
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Salty Dog
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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kvollmer welcome aboard! Thanks for the dancing insight. I think when you reach the higher levels of this game you'll hear a lot of different types of music. Each level introduces new songs and as you already know, some are 3-beat and some are 4-beat. There's even a tune on Swashbuckler level that is double-speed!
Yes, this is probably line dancing and we can see why. I think Sid did a great job on this mini-game. Who would have thought a bunch of guys would be interested in dancing in a computer game?!! Amazing!
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Ruslan the pirate
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:47 am Post subject: |
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People who ever played Civilization 3!
Did you noticed that one of the musics at Pirates (I don't know what is the name of it) is the same as one of the musics at the Industrial ages at civilization 3. Is it one of Sid Mieirs great ideas?
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Orangebeard
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Welcome aboard kvollmer!
I actually READ your entire post! Normally, I start to space out after the second or third paragraph, but this was an informative read. Thanks for putting it together!
I learned to dance for my wedding. To the un-trained eye, we looked great! My sister (ballroom dances competitively) said we did a good job and that since she had never seen anything like it she could only assume it was some kind of home-made "Fox-Waltz" 
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kvollmer
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:14 am Post subject: Faster computer makes it easier |
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Ok I havn't posted here in a long time but I just got a faster computer. Went from a 1 ghz machine to a 3.4 ghz machine. Now I got pretty good at Pirates on the 1 ghz machine and when I took and tried it out on the 3.4 machine the fencing was a lot harder. (But I've adjusted to it so its all good) However for some reason the dancing was easier. I was doing pretty good on the old machine as I would land a hand kiss 70% of the time and 25% would be a dip. And maybe 5% of the time I'd fail but on the new machine check this. I dipped 7 attractive daughters in a row! (And I just started playing it again after taking a break from it for a while.) In total I've danced with about 10 daughters and I havn't stumbed once. (This is all without the patch mind you.) The only reason I think it might be easier is because I stepped back from Rouge to Adventure temporarily so that I could get used to the new fencing and naval battle speed. Oh and check this I noticed off a flourish on a turn in the closing part of a dance he actually uses a fundamental ballroom move. Watch closely on a turn with a flourish when an attractive daughter puts her hand out for the turn he reaches out with the right hand and pushes off against her wrist (Which is a pretty universally understood lead.) Its used more in swing, hustle, lindy hop and the like and you'll never see that used in an actual waltz but it is none the less a fundamentally correct lead. (Beautiful daughters don't do that because you never really touch them during the dance.)
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Karnik
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Not ballroom |
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| kvollmer wrote: | | a lot of people call the dancing ballroom or waltz. Now please bare with me because of my pickiness but I submit to you that the dancing in this game can not be called either. |
Thanks for all the info, kvollmer. I agree with Gun Pierson, picky can be good. So since I disagree with you, somewhat, I'll be picky.
What dance is labeled is often arbitrary. I do what's known in the U.S. as "international folk dancing", which sounds like it should be the dances done by peasants around the world. It is, but only sort of. It's mostly dances that are based on movements that were probably found in peasant dances. But the dances we do have almost all been arranged, modified, and choreographed for either stage performance or for the consumption of U.S. international folk dance groups. So "folk" is a bit of a stretch. The dances are mostly from the Balkans, with almost none from Africa or Asia. So "international" is only true in that it's "more than one nation of origin". Those dances that aren't from the Balkans include relatively modern social dances like the waltz and tango. And a few novelty dances from the U.S. (think of wedding dances like The Chicken/Duck/Birdie Dance, or the Hokey Pokey, and you'll get the idea). I suppose those are dances, too, so at least we've got that part right.
Arrrgh. First you be puttin' your left foot in! And if'n ye don't have a left foot, ye put your left pegleg in! Then you be putting your left foot or peg out! Arrrgh. Then in again, right smartly now! Steer hard to starboard, maties, and be a-turning yourself all about.
Over the long term historical period, about all you can say is that ballroom dancing is whatever was danced in a ballroom. A little less literally, it was the social dance of the elites of society, which usually meant the aristocracy. Before the waltz and other such couples dances, the social dances of the elites of Europe were typically set dances. You danced with a partner, but mostly not touching each other, arrayed in squares or longways sets.
That was ballroom dancing, for that era, which mostly overlaps with the era of Pirates! And Pirates! doesn't get the details right, but provides a decent and fun "look and feel" for that kind of dance.
There are plenty of other kinds of ballroom dancing, too. Some of the "international folk dances" I do are ballroom dances. Not just the waltz and tango (and the waltzes and tangos we do are somewhat different from the Ballroom Dance Association's waltz and tango). But some of the Balkan dances, too. They were developed as choreographies in the Serbian Royal Court in the early 1900s. They were modeled on peasant dances, but they were only done by the Queen and the nobility at various court balls.
So, yes, in Pirates!, we're not dancing a waltz. Good thing -- as you note, it would be inappropriate to do so during that period. But it is a reasonable fascimile of (some of) the dancing done in ballrooms during (some of) the 1600s. It's not the Ballroom Dance Association's version of ballroom dancing, because that's derived from the social dances of the elites of a later era. But it's still ballroom dancing.
P.S. As kvollmer says, the waltz was most scandolous when it came out, because you were *gasp* holding your partner in your arms! Embracing her in public! One preacher condemned it by saying "The waltz is the vertical expression of a horizontal desire!" Whereupon, I imagine, everyone ran out to learn to waltz. 
P.P.S. "Shall We Dance" is indeed a good movie. The original Japanese version, anyway, I haven't seen the U.S. remake, and from the trailer, it doesn't look as good. Another good one is "Strictly Dancing", which is a "young romance" story, set up in a way which pokes fun at the Ballroom Dance Association's competitions. Quote from the movie: "Well, you can dance any steps you like...[omnious music up] but that doesn't mean [echo chamber on] you'll win." |
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kvollmer
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject: Some good points |
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Well I guess its just a differnce of semantics. By the dictionary your probably right because its done typically in a "Ballroom" so therefore it could be considered ballroom. Thats an ok prespective to have. I however am comming from the perspective of USA Dance (Formerly United States Amateur Ballroom Dancer's Association) which I was a member of when I was in a competitive team in college. (I recently decided not to renew my membership because I graduated and am not currently in a competitive team nor am I a part of any regular practices.)
Speaking of the International flavor. (I typically practice American styles however I know some international styles in Rumba, Cha Cha, and definatly waltz) I actually got 5th place with my partner Cheri (A freshman that I taught myself.) at the Collegate National Championship Team Trials in Columbus OH last year in International Waltz. Since I go to a small school that would not be by any means considered a ballroom dancing powerhouse, I was the only person from my team to advance to the finals of my dance in the team trials. Although it should be pointed out that the term "National Championships" is sort of a misnomer because USABDA just decided this competition was going to be called that but anyone who can afford the registration fee and make it out to columbus that weekend can go. PS Apparently this means that I'm good at International Waltz or something but I'm completely clueless as to how I got "good" at it.
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Kirk Vollmer
Don't ever call me Captain Kirk.
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TheSpanishRenegade
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Waltz is actually pretty easy to learn, the exception, of course, being the Viennese Walz, for wich you either have a talent, or you don't. Now hailing from Vienna (yes, the one where the Waltz comes from) myself you'd expect me be good at it, right? - Wrong!
But apart from Viennese Waltz, I am a pretty decent dancer, or at least I was, when I quit a few years ago...
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kvollmer
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: Viennese Waltz |
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I can actually do V. Waltz but I agree its really difficult to do. And if your not in good shape then your done for. Being an American my honest opinion is that if you took a random sampling of 100 americans like 30 of them would have a heart attack trying it. International Waltz is easier to learn then American Waltz. International Waltz doesn't allow for open figure steps such as the butterfly and passing twinkles. The only two steps I know in International Waltz are those which can also be applied to American Waltz. The left and right rotating boxes and the spin turn. There is probably more too it but I havn't gotten very far into it because I've always been more of an American style dancer. (I think my victories in Int. Waltz had something to do with my technique then anything else. I pretty well practiced rise and fall technique every day for a couple years. (That helps)
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Kirk Vollmer
Don't ever call me Captain Kirk.
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TheSpanishRenegade
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I would have the ability to do a pretty good V. Waltz (that's what my instructor always told me). The actual problem, however, is that I'm not particularly fond of it... I was more of the Quickstep-man...
The point is that you do everything that you don't like doing not as good as the things you like doing. And I think dancing visualizes that pretty good. For eyample, the only people that can really do a good V. Walz are the ones that also like dancing it.
| kvollmer wrote: | | I think my victories in Int. Waltz had something to do with my technique then anything else. I pretty well practiced rise and fall technique every day for a couple years |
There you go. That's probably it. Most people who aren't professionals cannot do that right. (Why? Beats me...) But training it several years? I imagine, your tech kicks @ss. Didn't you get seasick?
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kvollmer
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: seasickness |
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Hmm it makes sense that some people could get sick doing it but I've just never heard of it. Of course I don't really get motion sickness too bad usually unless I'm reading in the car.
I've seen some people get sick doing a hustle for too long but its still pretty rare.
Yeah I practiced like that because I absolutly love Waltzing. I sort of decided that if there was one dance I wanted to look good doing it was that one. But I find that once you've developed enough everyone has one dance that they are really good at and one dance that they are terrible at. I was always terrible at swing. I've seen people who worked for two weeks on swing and where already better then I was at it.
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Kirk Vollmer
Don't ever call me Captain Kirk.
Valparaiso University Alumni; Class of 2004 |
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