Let's end the War Canoe Speed Myth

Strange · Swabbie Posts: 57 **2194 Gold** -

Myth: the War Canoe has a higher top speed than a Pinnace or Mail Runner.

Fact: The War Canoe, Pinnace, and Mail Runner all have the same top speed.

I'll agree with the bunch of you War Canoe Fanatics that since it is smaller, it has an advantage in evading fire, because there's less of it to hit. As I can't think of any good way to test turning ability, I'll not take a position on that aspect.

in "Ship Speed and Difficulty Level", I lay out the mechanics of how difficulty affects ship speed.

Take a trainer and conduct your own tests if you're not convinced.

If the War Canoe really had a higher top speed, then I should be able to outrun a Pinnace or Mail Runner in it on Adventurer level, and at least have equal speed to a Pinnace on Rouge Level. This is not the case!

Note that my article is only about top speed, it takes no position on turning ability, acceleration, or abliity to dodge fire.

Here's a graphic to help people understand why some may get the impression the war canoe is faster:

--*-- (size of War Canoe)
---*--- (size of Pinnace)
----*---- (size of Mail Runner)

The '*' represents the center of the ship the '-' aspects of length. You can see that the Mail Runner is larger than the War Canoe. If an enemy fired at your ship center, and the War Canoe, Pinnace, and Mail Runner go to evade the fire, the War Canoe would be out of the shot's position sooner Becase it is Shorter in Length. NOT because it is faster. This optical illiusion of being farther away from the cannon shot creates the false impression that the war canoe is faster when it is not.

And finially, IMHO, At any rate, with a decent level of skill, you don't need the War Canoe's small size adavtage on Adventurer or even Rouge. You can enjoy sailing in a Pinnace, Mail Runner, Sloop Class, Frigate Class or Brig Class vessel. Not the combat galleons cause they suck. Razz

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fossaman · Gunner Posts: 726 **3515 Gold** -

Hmm...I've been wondering about this. I might need to do some tests, but your explanation makes sense. It does say that they are the same speed in the manual, and although the manual is not very reliable, I think the ships and items section is probably the most accurate in it.
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Gun Pierson · Gunner Posts: 809 **5053 Gold** -

There's much more to it why I choose the war canoe over the pinace and mailrunner or any ship than just the speed. 75 men at max, this means few mouths to feed and the crew will be happier sooner when it comes to the gold. The smaller size is extremely important in my strat as I don't take guns with me and I have to evade fast at all cost. I can't loose to many men either before boarding as I might need them when fencing versus the famous boys and their bigger crews.

You can argument that a pinace or mailrunner has more men aboard and therefore is better so you can stand an impact. I don't think so, if a war galleon hits you one time you'll loose that advantage and your ship can be seriously damaged. After that it's good game.

But let's stick to the main discussion here, the speed...I tested them all three and my natural feeling is that the canoe is the fastest. This can be an illusion and I would like to see some real facts on it. But assume that the canoe turns quicker (you don't take a position on that), it is simply faster then as you win time.

rupertlittlebear · Helmsman Posts: 4545 **10381 Gold** -

This is a strange world.
What you expect to see will color your observations.
When I started using the War Canoe, I wanted it to have the same speed as the Mail Runner. I really wanted the larger crew and cargo space.

Strange thing is that the Canoe is faster and turns sharper. It doesn't matter what I wanted to be true, it simply is faster.

Considering the amount of observation that went into this and how much I wanted the opposing view to be true, you ain't gonna convince me otherwise unless you can produce the coefficients used by the game for comparison.

P.S. Anybody know the difference between a Real Number and an Integer. Seems that this difference will have real bearing on this issue.

PrinceScamp · Gunner Posts: 891 **213 Gold** -

i find that i tend to shoot it out anyways, so my small ships get wrecked
Evil or Very Mad

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Strange · Swabbie Posts: 57 **2194 Gold** -

Gun Pierson · Gunner Posts: 809 **5053 Gold** -

Great analysis there Strange. Nevertheless there's much more to take into account than just sailing behind, in front or next to another ship with the same upgrades on adventurer to take the test. Like crews onboard, distance from winds, etc. If the canoe turns quicker, a straight line test wouldn't be accurate either.

Also sailing into the wind while zigging. You can't do a representative test on that as the AI and the human tester don't zig simultaneously or enough.

I have no experience with trainers though and I think Rupert has way more experience on this issue than I have.

I think the only way to know it exactly is like Rupert says by having the real coefficients the game uses.

fossaman · Gunner Posts: 726 **3515 Gold** -

Okay, I just used pinnace to fight a couple of war canoes. I went the same direction as them, and until I started taking damage, I was every bit as fast. I turned slower, but that might have been because they reefed their sails to turn. The computer uses that tactic alot. I noticed that when I turned with reefed sails, the rate was about the same as what thewar canoes were doing.
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Kristian95 · Boatswain Posts: 3149 **4687 Gold** -

DrBeast · Cutthroat Posts: 493 **5316 Gold** -

When I first noticed that the mail runner felt a bit more sluggish and slower I was using a captured one. When I wanted to confirm this fact I used a trainer (the Phalzyrian Trainer btw). As it was running on the background, I entered battle mode with a war canoe, destroyed the enemy sails with the trainer so as to force a surrender and avoid any unwanted gunfire, chasing and/or fleeing, did some acceleration and top speed tests (19 knots), paused, switched to the trainer, substituted the war canoe with a mail runner, did some acceleration and top speed tests (18 knots). The wind speed and direction had NOT changed during the tests. What I did change was number of crew and cannons, I used the maximum number of both depending on the ship. I did the same with the pinnace and it reached 19 knots too, but its acceleration was a bit worse. I might be a brick when it comes to maths, but I do know that 19 is greater than 18.

I've also done some testing to see if crew and cannons play any role in acceleration and top speed, and I've found out that only if the ship is ridiculously overloaded (400 men and 40 cannons on a war canoe) does acceleration and top speed decrease (a knot or two for top speed). 300 men and 30 cannons however had no effect. I might do some additional tests with a mail runner loaded with the war canoe maxes, ie 75 crew and 8 cannons, to see if it has any impact, but based on my previous results I seriously doubt it.
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TheDon · Rigger Posts: 1292 **16718 Gold** -

400 men on a War Canoe?? LOL

None of these tests really prove any difference and when you play on Swashbuckler it doesn't matter anyway. On Swashbuckler a Galleon can outrun a War Canoe. I know because I've had it happen. I was chasing Mendoza towards Santa Catalina and he flat outran me. I didn't catch up to him until he reached port and stopped.

I like all the small fast ships as well as the large frigates (I think I'll like the SOL if I ever manage to capture one). All those in between just seem to lack too much and I can't make them work for me as well.

thedon

rupertlittlebear · Helmsman Posts: 4545 **10381 Gold** -

ruf · Seaman Posts: 198 **899 Gold** -

Two things:

First-- a specialist navigator will influence the speed of a ship.

Second-- In the real world, the larger the ship, the faster it goes. The Titanic was the biggest AND fastest ship of it's time.

When a ship sails, it pushes a wake in front of it. The faster the ship, the bigger the wake. Eventually a small ship will push such a large wake, that it will be sailing "Uphill" if you will. The faster the ship, the further the distance will be between the peaks of the waves that support a ship. Like this:

^--^--^--^

The faster the ship, the longer the waves:

^-----^-----^-----^

So a larger ship can be supported by more wave peaks, and is therefore not sailing "uphill."

Theoretically, the fastest ships would be supported by one wave peak on the bow, and one in the stern, keeping the ship level. However, if the wave get too big, there will be no support in the middle of the ship and it will break in half (like the Edmound Fitzgerald).

I hope this makes sense. Smile

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ruf · Seaman Posts: 198 **899 Gold** -

if there are any D&D players out there, I would like to refer them to Dragon magazine #70: "The Hull Truth About Speed: larger ships make faster frigates."

There is a great chart on pg.9:

Length at waterline (in ft) Best speed (knots)
10- 4.3
15- 5.2
20- 6.0
25- 6.8
30- 7.4

ect... (The above reflects best speeds. Absolute top speeds are slightly higher).
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Salty Dog · Sailing Master Posts: 10060 **191991 Gold** -

I've hit 20 knots in battle with a war canoe. Highest speed I have seen with a Pinnace or Mail Runner is 18, maybe 19 knots. I know this is not scientific, just a personal observation, but it appears to me the war canoe sails faster and turns quicker.
Salty Rolling Eyes